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TOPIC: PowerFC mapping
#7553
PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 265
Dave recently sent me this question, I thought I would answer it in a thread as I think this is a popular topic at the moment and there might be more people who have similar or related questions. There may also be other people who have opinions and experience to share to help everyone get a balanced view of the topic.

"I have the apexi power fc, Is it possible to map myself or is it best to get TDP to do it, and if its best to get tdp to do it then is it much point having the Apexi in the first place or does it just help them map it better etc, My car was running very rich so i'm looking at getting it mapped"

My view on it:
It is possible to do a DIY mapping session, that is the beauty of the PowerFC (and any standalone ECU). The PowerFC is regarded as somewhat of a 'simplified standalone' in that it has just enough to be programmable, without having so much that you need a computer science PhD to understand it. For that reason it is a good ECU for novice mappers. If you are chasing ultimate power, then DIY or 'street mapping' is not a very good choice as there are not very accurate tools available for determining if the changes that you are making are having a beneficial or detrimental effect on the performance of your car. You can buy GTechGtech meters etc, however changes due to windspeed, road environmentals, traffic conditions etc mean that you only have a very rough measurement to consider and from one day to the next your results can vary. They are fun to play with though!


_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG
_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG


Regarding DIY mapping, the elements that you need to take in to account for when mapping are:
* Air/Fuel ratio
* Ignition timing
* Correction factors

Air/Fuel ratio
You may have heard that your engine is essentially an air pump. The pumping action is created by burning air and the more air you can burn, the more torque/power your engine creates. There can be many catalysts (fuels) for burning air, the one most people are familiar with is unleaded petrol (however e85 is also used in Ireland).

As with anything, there is a balance point where you want to have a good mix of air and fuel to burn. If you have too many parts of fuel in your Air/Fuel mix, your engine will run "rich" meaning smokey, chugging, poor pickup, clogging up spark plugs etc and overall be down on power. If you have not enough parts of fuel, you will get "lean burning" which normally entails higher temperatures, down on power, and at the extreme end, damage to your engine. There is a Stoich point, which essentially means the balance point of not too rich, and not too lean. There's a whole science behind it but in general for unleaded you find this point around 14.7:1 at idle. That is 14.7 parts of air (measured by weight) to 1 part of fuel.
[img]http://livingonpurpose.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8345371d569e20105354a2f3e970c-800wi[/img]

Note that this is at idle and cruise and not the AFR to use when aiming for maximum power in a turbo or NA car. I am led to believe that in general these are 11.5:1 (turbo) and 13.0:1 (NA) however as stated previously it is only through dyno tuning that you can get an exact understanding of where optimum performance is.

So as you can appreciate, changing the AFR that your engine runs at can make things worse or better, and you need to be able to tell if your adjustments are heading in the right direction. Your MR2 does not have an AFR sensor that is accurate enough to detect these readings from the factory. There is a factory O2 sensor that does this job, however it is what is known as a 'narrow band' sensor, meaning that it can only detect for vary minor changes in the state (i.e. it says to the ECU - I am rich, or I am lean, it will not say by how much, or what the measurement is)

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

To be able to tune effectively, you need to have a much more clear view of what the AFR is that your engine is running at. This is achieved through using an aftermarket "Wideband Sensor" which can be installed in to your downpipe or exhaust system (this may require a bung to be welded in place or you can get adaptor plates for the factory location).

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG


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Two popular options for wideband kits are the Zeitronix ZT2 (http://www.zeitronix.com/Products/zt2/zt2.htm) and also the LM1 from Innovate (http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm1.php) both of which do a similar job but have various functions and features to differentiate themselves.

Using a wideband, it is possible therefore to adjust your fueling at different points while the engine is running to get to a desired outcome. The dyno tuning companies use the same tool to do the job, however because they can measure changes in power at the wheels, they can be more accurate at getting your fueling mix right.

The PowerFC allows for changes to the fueling correction map straight from the hand commander.

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Unfortunately however, the screen is very small and you can not see the whole map at once, this would not put off a serious tuner who knows where to look, but as a novice I preferred to look at the map on a laptop so you can see the whole map at once. One problem with this however is that the PowerFC (from the factory) does not allow you to connect a laptop unless you are an APEXi dealer (boo), so some clever chaps in New Zealand (Gidday Gil!) decided they would invent a black box that connects to the PowerFC and allow it to be programmed (this is called a Datalogit and is available at: http://www.fc-datalogit.co.nz/)

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

The Datalogit comes with software called (FCEdit) which allows you to edit the relevant tables within the PowerFC and directly adjust fueling/ignition timing etc. There are other software packages written to work with the Datalogit (eg: Co-pilot by MR2 owner and genius Kevin Bean) however I have not used them first hand as yet.

This is what a fueling map looks like in FCEdit. The points on the left hand (vertical column) are load points (i.e. how hard you put your foot down, or if your car is going up or down a hill) and the points on the top horizontal column are RPM.

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

Examples:

My car idles around the cells 5000(V) and 1200(H).
When accelerating hard in first gear I am using cells 3000-12000(v)
When accelerating hard in third gear I am using cells 10000-20000(v) etc

Summary
Just to re-iterate, yes it is possible to DIY map although you need to get hold of the right equipment to do so. You won't get maximum performance out of your car but you will have a lot of fun getting it 95% right and learn a lot in the process. You will also be able to cut down on dyno tuning time as the professional tuner will probably only need to tweak some stuff rather than do a whole map from scratch.

It's cheaper to just go to a dyno and pay the money, but is that really fulfilling for a hobby? I guess it's down to the individual.


There's a whole other side to mapping which includes ignition timing (equally if not more important than fuel), I've written some threads last year on 3sgte tuning and ZT2 installation that go over fueling and timing:
http://www.mr2.ie/index.php/mr2-forum/8-performance-and-repairs/91-3sgte-tuning#137

http://www.mr2.ie/index.php?option=com_kunena&Itemid=53&func=view&id=554&catid=18#554


Please feel free to ask more questions/discuss/add other opinions or items and let's discuss. I have a lot of screenshots and data that I can add in to explain further details... :)
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#7555
Re: PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 265
I forgot to say: Dave if you want to go down the road of self tuning I can help you out (save you buying a datalogit) but you would need to buy a Wideband.
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#7556
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 165
Great guide

Love the way the Apexi hardware is so advanced, that the cables plug themselves in
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#7557
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 235
Thanks Geoff, much easier to understand after reading the above, I think i'll book my 2 in for mapping into TDP fairly soon, and further down the line i'll explore self mapping etc, that way I have a decent base to work off and track where new mods effect the different areas of the mapping etc, Have to say the dyno run has really made me explore the more technical side of the car rather than plasma dials and lights and I'd say i'll be thinking seriously of getting some hardware & software to get it 95% right further down the line
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#7558
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 265
dshamrock2000 wrote:
Thanks Geoff, much easier to understand after reading the above, I think i'll book my 2 in for mapping into TDP fairly soon, and further down the line i'll explore self mapping etc, that way I have a decent base to work off and track where new mods effect the different areas of the mapping etc, Have to say the dyno run has really made me explore the more technical side of the car rather than plasma dials and lights and I'd say i'll be thinking seriously of getting some hardware & software to get it 95% right further down the line

The only thing is that when you dyno tune, you are paying a professional to make an optimised map for you. So once that is done you don't want to mess with it or you're basically throwing all that money away.

The other thing is that anything you change on your car (exhaust/intake/injectors, etc etc, has an effect on how it runs so you don't want to be going back to pay for a 'remap' every time you change something. For that reason it's good to be able to tweak it as you build up your mods and then get the final tweak done on the dyno by the professionals who can extract that last 5%
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#7571
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 213
Nice write up Geoff, the force is strong in you young vader.
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#7572
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 76
I was talking to a guy today how said the pfc is nothing more than a piggy back and he was trying to sell me one.
The HKS fcon was £1700 mapped
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#7578
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 265
You can do a lot with PowerFC's, unless you have over 400whp you probably don't need more than it. I've also seen some 600hp JDM drag cars running them..
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#7579
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 76
I was looking at them but the rev3 conversion puts me off one
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#7585
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 265
You can buy a conversion harness, fit one sensor and you're good to go!
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#7586
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 76
Quandry wrote:
You can buy a conversion harness, fit one sensor and you're good to go!
Do you know where?
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#7591
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 148
Fair play Quandry, serious amount of info. Thanks for taking the time to write all that. Im sure that has clarified many things for many people, but speaking for myself, I previously had some loose ideas of how this all worked, but you have made it very clear and understandable. Thanks again, KC for you.
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#7594
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 265
ricky2 wrote:
Quandry wrote:
You can buy a conversion harness, fit one sensor and you're good to go!
Do you know where?


Kachow!

ATS offer the most complete kit, but it's a little expensive - you get what you pay for though. If you find out what the part number is of your existing ECU and tell Aaron or Scott, they can tell you exactly what you need to get rolling with a PowerFC
www.atsracing.net/PowerFC_install_kits.htm


Otherwise I think you can get them from Berk:
www.berktechnology.com/shop/prodtype.asp...;numRecordPosition=1


or do a repin on the harness and then buy the sensors from GTSChris:
www.gtschris.com/store/comersus_listCate...ts.asp?idCategory=69
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#7595
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 265
SWAGGER wrote:
Fair play Quandry, serious amount of info. Thanks for taking the time to write all that. Im sure that has clarified many things for many people, but speaking for myself, I previously had some loose ideas of how this all worked, but you have made it very clear and understandable. Thanks again, KC for you.

No worries, have you got a pic of your dyno from the weekend that shows AFR? it would be interesting to see how close your setup is...
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#7596
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 8
Are Power FC's specific, i.e. do I have to buy one specifically for an MR2 or are they all the same?

Where's the cheapest place to pick one up?
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#7597
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 76
Turlock wrote:
Are Power FC's specific, i.e. do I have to buy one specifically for an MR2 or are they all the same?

Where's the cheapest place to pick one up?

They are car specific you can get a new one from gt chris or 2nd hand on ebay for about £500
www.gtschris.com/store/comersus_listCate...ts.asp?idCategory=69
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#7599
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 265
APEXi made PowerFC's for all different types of cars. There was two different SW20 model PowerFC's. The rarer of the two were designed for Rev1/2 3sgte, this is called the 'AP engineering' model and is designed to work with the restrictive Toyota MAF.

The more common (and better) PowerFC is for Rev 3+ and is designed to work in speed density mode therefore not requiring a MAF to operate. The PowerFC is only produced in batches for special orders at present so you need to go through an APEXi reseller or you might find one second hand on ebay.

From time to time 3sgte PowerFC's are sold by ATS Racing, Berk Technology, GTSChris and possibly others. I would recommend buying one that comes with the hand commander as they are not always included and are expensive to buy separately.
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#7613
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 235
I've booked my car into TDP for mapping next Friday 16th, so I'll post up stats from dyno day and then the new ones after it
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#7614
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 265
Cool!
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#7663
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 265
Extrememly good deal (500 sterling) on a PowerFC here: www.imoc.co.uk/forums/viewtopic.php?t=133351
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#7768
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 165
dshamrock2000 wrote:
I've booked my car into TDP for mapping next Friday 16th, so I'll post up stats from dyno day and then the new ones after it

Hey Dave

Would you be able to pick up my BBQ utensils when you drop down to TDP ? I left a whole bag down there Food is obviously thrown out but just need the BBQ utensils. I'll grab them from you at the next meet/mini-meet.
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#7771
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 235
Yep no problem, Just remind me before next friday, i take it there still down there and havent gone missing
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#7773
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 165
dshamrock2000 wrote:
Yep no problem, Just remind me before next friday, i take it there still down there and havent gone missing

Ta - yeah, Cathy emailed me after and I told her I'd pick them up but it might be a few weeks before I get back down.
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#7774
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 148
Hey Quandry,
Ive been up to my eyes, ill get a pic up during the week. I want to get mine mapped too as I reckon she is still mapped for Jap fuel etc. Its running very rich and was obviously a bit more supped up before being shipped to Ireland. I want to get a few things done before paying for a full mapping. Ill fill you in when I see you.
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#8019
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 10 Months ago Karma: 265
dshamrock2000 wrote:
Yep no problem, Just remind me before next friday, i take it there still down there and havent gone missing

Today's tuning day Dave??? hope you have a blast! can't wait to see how your car will do after a good remap I bet you won't even know it!!
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#8290
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 9 Months ago Karma: 235
Spidey wrote:
dshamrock2000 wrote:
I've booked my car into TDP for mapping next Friday 16th, so I'll post up stats from dyno day and then the new ones after it

Hey Dave

Would you be able to pick up my BBQ utensils when you drop down to TDP ? I left a whole bag down there Food is obviously thrown out but just need the BBQ utensils. I'll grab them from you at the next meet/mini-meet.


Forgot to say I got your "BAGS" of Utensils last friday from TDP, I went out to change my headlight bulbs this evening and thought I'll put all those utensils into one bag, save a bit of space I looked into the bags and thought "I should have known utensils wouldnt take up two bags" as I looked in at green mouldy sausages, green bread buns etc , needless to say I dumped the food and have your utensils for the next mini meet, had to be the warmest weekend of the year that I had them in my boot
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#8302
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 9 Months ago Karma: 8
How'd the mapping go Dave?
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#8304
Re:PowerFC mapping 1 Year, 9 Months ago Karma: 235
It went well, had 243 on dyno day and after mapping was up to 299, it was on a dyno 4 years ago and was 283 so I knew it must of needed mapping badly, i posted up a post with the charts "dyno day V's mapping" they have the dyno day graphs on the same sheets as the test after mapping, At the moment im tracking my fuel consumption so as soon as the tank is near empty i'll know how many extra klms im getting per tank

www.mr2.ie/index.php/mr2-forum/18-ecu-an...-day-vs-mapping-2day
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