The following came from a conversation between Quandry and myself on the GT86 thread about the cost of the new cars in Ireland. Would be good to hear people opinions should be interesting


basch32 wrote:
...

Update: And to be fair its no fault of Toyota's, the car is going to have a VAT rate of 23% and VRT of between 24% --> 32% which is emissions dependent. I just found on the inter webs its 160g/km for the GT86 which puts it at a VRT rate of 24% so looking at a price of 38k upwards. The worst thing being VRT is calculated at base cost + VAT! So we get taxed on tax , along with double taxation

Quandry wrote:
Really! so 50% or so of the new car price is tax to the Irish government?

basch32 wrote:
Unfortunately afaik know this is correct and the reason that the performance car market in Ireland is gone such as the high end Subaru's , Nissan's, Mazda's eg. RX-8 the list goes on and on. Its also the reason why in general the spec of car in Ireland is much lower for a similar price point as other European countries as the manufacturers try to get the model into the Irish market at a certain price bracket

This is also the same scenario for the price of petrol in ireland where 75% (roughly) goes to the government. The petrol station gets between 3-4 cents and the cost of it to them is in the 40cents bracket last time i checked the rest is duty, carbon tax and vat!

Irish motorists get the real run around. In the end its the state of our roads that annoys me I would be happy with all these taxes if our roads where drivable for the most part.

I think Leo Varadkar should be trying to change the system to make it fairer and more sustainable.

1) The current motor tax system is unfair especially for people with 07 cars that are identical to 08 but are paying tax that is in some cases 500+ more expensive! My parents fall into this category unfortunately with a Saab 93 1.9 TiD 650euro tax while 08 is 266euro i think.

2)Then we have the vrt issue which is stifling the market as people cant afford to buy new cars. Cheaper cars a retail would mean a more frequent turn around as Ireland people before the recession like to change every 4ish years many after only a year or two. This meant that there was a great second hand market. We seen this with the scrappage scheme but well as we know the government are rather short sighted.

It was his fore bearers that set up the system and the vrt+vat issue has been there for years, its not however illegal but the EU has said that it is in conflict with a free market philosophy and should be phased out but this was before the current global meltdown so dont see it ending ever really.

3) The total disregard for rural roads whether primary or secondary routes. Most of the funding goes into motorways into and out of Dublin city! And yes while Dublin is an important hub there are many ares such as Cork, Bantry (deepest bay in Europe)and which has possible the worst road to and fro, that could benefit from good road networks. Also is the issue of traffic accidents most fatal accidents happen on the smaller roads in Ireland and I think its due to the condition they are kept in. BUT I also understand that proper due care should be taken and that speed is a factor but I know of roads where 30mph would be probably the safe speed but your not going to get anywhere at that rate and also as most people travel faster you would become a danger to others.

Irish motorists get the real run around. In the end its the state of our roads that annoys me I would be happy with all these taxes if our roads where drivable for the most part. So Leo should be ashamed of keeping a terrible set up system going and not making changes!

rather lengthy so hope it wasnt too much of a rant

I fully support the idea that they need to scrap the "pro green" agenda on motor tax and VRT. It's a joke! International studies have shown that the emissions of making a new car (think about factories and shipping/logistics) are higher than just keeping an old car ticking over year after year. So really they are rewarding people who pollute more with cheaper cars/tax, than someone who say imports a car from Japan or the UK.

Secondly, I fully agree with the above that basically Ireland will become a country full of Nissan Micras due to the anti consumer fiscal bashing of VRT itself. VAT is one thing, ok we have to have it but VRT has been proven to be illegal according to the EU and is just a straight money grab that forces the manufacturers to look like the bad guys.

On the flip side of this, they will need to make up for the shortfall in taxes somewhere and it seems that the most fairest place to do that is at the fuel pumps and cutting government waste by killing off a few political parties. I suggest we start with the greens.

Anyone else got any suggestions?

yeah - definitely tax on the fuel - pay for your usage !

@Basch32 - have you seen this thread ? This guy in Donegal has put a lot of work into the whole anti-VRT campaign already

www.mr2.ie/mr2-forum/7-news-and-announcements/32066-vrt#32066

Spidey I hadnt seen the post thanks for that, unfortunately does not look like the site has been updated in a while

Ah they will just put a pay as you use it on fuel tax and keep vrt so dont be givin em ideas The whole system would need to be looked at so that one fuel is still affordable while the tax take doesnt change. This shouldnt be a way of increasing tax take but to make it fairer!

Also as long as the roads in Ireland remain in the current state I will not be happy with paying the level of tax associated with being a motorist!

The ideal thing would be for motor tax/ vrt / carbon tax all removed and the then to put a tax on fuel that will be appropriate so that like above tax take stays the same but doesnt increase (as we already pay a substantial portion of the combined taxes in Ireland).

also this tax should be on the base price of pertrol not the price including vat, I dont understand how taxing price + vat is legal or makes any sense!

Its a pity that even with thousands of names on a petition, the petition is just going to get ignored.

If you look at it this way - the ONLY thing that matters to the Govt at the moment is to make that bottom line balance.

They pay out hundreds of millions on Anglo Bonds in the face of a public outcry. So, will they change MotorTax because a system is unfair ? ....

The only way they will change is they are sure they will get in as much tax take.

Having said that, the guy in Donegal did show some worked figures.


"Below is our proposal for the removal of Vehicle Registration Tax, which is based on a fairer system of motoring for everyone. It has been
compiled with economic and environmental concerns in mind, and while we by no means state that this is the complete solution, we have
based our figures on very conservative estimates and the figures do add up. It is up to our government to work these figures and assumptions
into a workable alternative to VRT.

The figures which the government say they require to get rid of VRT have been rubbished by the Commission for Taxation already. The
Government believe the only answer is to lump 25-30 cent per litre on fuel. This shows just how short-sighted and unimaginative their
Policy making has been to date. We believe we have shown some foresight in this area. Please have a look and let us know what you think.
You can contact us get in touch by email on the Contact page above.

A Solution to Vehicle Registration Tax in Ireland

1) A VRT amnesty offered for all foreign registered vehicles to allow owners to legally import their vehicles, with a handling fee
for registration similar to that of commercial vehicles, followed by payment of Irish Road Tax on these vehicles. There should be a
requirement to prove that a vehicle has been in the owner’s possession for a period of time prior to the announcement of the amnesty
to prevent vehicles being purchased abroad en-masse. As there is a quarterly payment available for payment of road tax, this should allow
affordable transfer of vehicles for all. Heavier penalties for non-payment of Road Tax for those who have registered their vehicles, but n
ot paid Irish road tax should also be implemented, enforced by An Garda Siochana.

2) After a period of 6 months, the removal of Vehicle Registration Tax, which should be replaced with a flat rate €100 Vehicle
Registration Fee. This should be extended to all new registrations including previously exempt vehicles.

3) Tax of 20 cent on each ticket sold imposed on all public, local authority and private pay and display car parks. 10% fine imposed on
all fines issued for non-compliance with parking bye-laws, and clamping/tow-away release charges. This should not be extended to
residential parking schemes.

4) End of any Scrappage Scheme on new car sales, replaced with a rebate for used car sales to used car dealers on models first registered
after 1st January 2008.

5) Regulation of motor tax amounts. CC based calculations should remain as they are for vehicles registered pre-January 2008, as an
incentive for buying a newer model.

6) Increase of 4 cent per litre on Petrol and 2 cent per litre on Diesel

RATIONALE:


1. Assuming 50000 vehicles are registered, paying on average €500 in road tax, plus €100 as a one-off registration fee, this would

generate approximately €130,000,000 over the next 5 years in Road Tax. These vehicles are already on the road however road tax

is currently being paid to a foreign government, mainly the UK. There would also be significant cost savings from less requirement

of enforcement by Customs & Excise.



2. Removal of VRT should see a huge increase in new vehicle sales, restored to near 2008 levels. Also, those previously considering

a 2007/2008 model should now see themselves in a position to purchase a brand new car. Assuming 100,000 new vehicles are

registered, this should see VAT receipts increase by approximately €175,000,000 to €340,000,000, and adding the registration fee

this will add a further €14,800,000. It would also have the effect of modernising the fleet of vehicles currently on the road in Ireland,

thus being more fuel efficient, and creating less CO2



3. Figures not yet available, although assuming 100,000 pay and display spaces exist, and excluding added revenue from enforcement

of non-compliance, this would generate approximately €8,000,000 per year. See calculation attached. I believe the number of spaces

available for pay and display to be a lot higher than 100,000. This will effectively act as a localise congestion charge also, and

hopefully discourage non-essential use of cars in built up areas..



4. With the removal of VRT, all vehicles will automatically depreciate, and the only casualty in this would be used car dealers. As

this industry is already in difficulty, it would be necessary to allow dealers time to wind down stocks, and allow a rebate on sales

of cars taxable under newer CO2 based Road tax prices. It should have less of an impact on those who currently own a vehicle, as

the depreciation will be across the board, and newer models will also depreciate, making their next purchase much more affordable.

The rebate would be based upon a % rate of VRT already paid on the vehicle purchased, on models later than January 2008, to

lessen the impact of depreciation on any remaining stock used vehicles.



5. By leaving CC rates or road tax in place, this will a much greater incentive for those changing their car to buy a 2008 model

or newer, as they will avail of cheaper road tax in most cases, and again helping to modernise the types of cars driven on Irish

roads – safer, more fuel efficient transport.



6. This measure would be required to slowly bring Ireland closer in line with EU objectives, by basing tax collected on usage,

rather than engine emissions. A simple example is that a driver may own a 1.0 litre Renault Clio, and will fall into the cheaper

tax bracket as it stands, whereas the owner of BMW X5 will fall into the higher bracket. If the BMW driver only does 5000 miles

per year, and the Clio driver does 40000 miles per year, the Clio driver is obviously creating much higher CO2. This would regulate

this part of the road tax, and should eventually lead to a usage-only based road tax. The initial rise would increase tax claimed by

the exchequer by approximately €150,000,000. per year, followed by an incremental annual rise/reduction regarding fuel tax/road

tax values."

I think the usage model is definitely where it should go however the cost of road tolls will also have to be taken into account as this also seems to be a large tax take in the future.

And I keep harping on about it and I apologize for this but coming from the country or in irish terms "the back arse of nowhere" we have to see improved raods for the rice we would be paying. This is due to the fact inevitable due to poorer public transport and the distances people have to travel to work, more money will need to be put into the roads in these ares. That and a tax credit when you can prove that you have to travel a certain distance to work AND no viable public transport alternative. As the goverment is providing no alternative to using a car. i think this is a fair statement?!

Lastly Dublin city needs to get a charge for driving around the city like in London. And this would in portion be used to maintain and improve the public transport system and for god sake link the two luas lines some time soon!

VRT EU petitions Committee Youtube (good viewing)
youtu.be/9dgrJQDuCBc

Interesting note on VRT in the latest finance bill:

Vehicle Registration Tax (VRT)
The Bill has included provision for the repayment of the VRT paid on a vehicle where that vehicle is exported from the state. In order to be eligible for this repayment, the following requirements must be met:
* the registration documents and a valid NCT cert must be presented and examined
* the open market selling price of the vehicle must be €2,000 or more
* the claim for repayment of VRT must be accompanied by documentation showing that the vehicle in question was removed fromt eh State within 30 days of teh examination of the documentation and proof that either, the vehicle has been registered in another EU Member State or has been permanently exported outside th EU.

Repayment of VRT shall be made to the person whose name appears ont he registration cert at the time of examination. VRT shall again be payable on the re-improtation of a vehicle in to the state.

download.pwc.com/ie/pubs/2012_finance_bill.pdf

So what I take from this is that they want to encourage the export of used cars from the state. Presumably the thinking here is that more money can be offered for scrappage and that this will encourage us all to 'give up our old cars' and pay a fortune in tax for new ones??

Don't forget the €500 administration fee which kinda messes up the profit element of the deal. Unless your exporting high value machines.

Then of course the OMSP of the car will be different depending on if your importing or exporting, for the good of the nation like!

We all know we are screwed with fuel here but when you see the figures, it is depressing. Check out link below comapring UK/Europe to US

edition.cnn.com/2012/02/28/opinion/opini...as-prices/index.html

Excerpt from it :

London (CNN) -- Gas prices might have breached the $4 per gallon mark in the U.S., but there won't be much sympathy for the American plight in Europe. In fact, that U.S. price of £2.52 a gallon looks highly affordable compared to the UK's current average cost of £6.22 ($9.85).

In some places here you'll pay an eye-watering £7.27 ($11.52) for a gallon of super unleaded. And prices throughout the rest of Europe are similarly high. But it is worth sparing a thought for the hard-pressed Norwegians who'll pay £7.28 ($11.54) for a gallon of the regular stuff across their country.

If the price of oil was the only factor to dictate the expense of gas it wouldn't be such a bitter pill. But it isn't. The government decides how much we're going to pay per gallon. Surprise, surprise, it also decides that the majority of it should be diverted to their coffers. So of our £6.22 average, £3.74 ($5.92), or a bit over 60%, ends up in the Treasury's back pocket.

The government isn't the only guilty party. Fuel producers take 36%, which goes some way to explaining Shell's obscene £18.1bn ($28.6bn) profits from last year.