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TOPIC: 3sgte tuning
#91
3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
Recently I have started to get to grips with 'home tuning' my RevII. The reasons for this are:
1. I have a few dyno companies I can go to, but they are probably not overly familiar with MR2's
2. I have a good knowledge of the workings of engines and fuel injection and want to build on that.
3. I like a challenge.
4. I have a new engine coming soon, I know the stock ECU probably would not cope and I wanted to be able to setup a 'safe tune' for the running in period and then take it to the dyno for (hopefully) a few optimising tweaks.

I think there are a few people in the same boat as me and so I wanted to start this thread to share what I am doing, what I am learning, what mistakes I'm making, and hopefully successes also. I'm hoping that this will inspire other 3sgte 'home/pro tuners' to share advice and maybe we can build up our own pool of self propagating knowledge right here in this forum.
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#92
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
My chosen engine management system is the PowerFC, however a lot of the adjustable parameters I think should be relatively interchangeable between the different platforms. Certainly I have found so far that there is a mix of tools that are required, i.e. the PFC is great for easy access and easy visibility as it has it's own hand controller,

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

but sometimes it's more comfortable to peruse your maps over a laptop away from the car and so for this reason, I bought a datalogit that allows you to 'edit offline'.

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

Finally I am in the process of installing a Zeitronix ZT2 wideband kit, which I hope will make my tuning much more effective. Tuning without any visibility of Air Fuel Ratio can be like Russian roulette.

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG
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#93
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
For interest sake, here is the stock base map that comes with the PFC (GENIII). The columns across the top are RPM breakpoints and the columns down the LHS are load breakpoints (e.g. hill or no hill, accelerating or decelerating)
_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

and the stock ign map
_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

I got my PFC from ATS (a special brew GENII edition) and it was a very easy install and the car was idling within minutes of plugging in the ECU. However one of the problems I have at the moment is that my engine has been getting significant levels of knock on heavy acceleration. This is not totally unexpected, as I have a hybrid CT20 turbo and some other mods (exhaust/IC etc) that put it out of whack compared to a stock GENII. We also have a lot different ambient temperature, humidity and air pressure to where ATS are located also. All of these items affect the ability for the ECU maps to work within the target AFR.

So after getting to grips with the Datalogit, I adjusted my maps to try and tackle the knock. Firstly I reduced my ignition timing in the high load areas (by about 8 to 9 degrees - circled in red)
_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

and secondly I richened up my fuel map firstly across the board by 3msec, and then stages of higher load areas up about 7msec.
_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

The results are that the car still knocks in 3rd, but knock in 2nd has been eliminated, it idles smoother, starts easier and is generally more fun to drive. The car never ran that well on the stock ECU and already feels nicer. Once I have my wideband installed, I will be datalogging the AFR across the map to see just how far it is out, correct it, and then optimise the timing.
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#94
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
I am reading a good book on ECU tuning at present:

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Engine Management: Advance Tuning (Performance How-To S-A Design)

It covers a lot about the fundamentals of EFI and then goes on with a (in a roundabout way) approach to tuning. You can pick this up at Amazon etc and I would recommend it to anyone who is interested in improving their knowledge.
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#96
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
Here's my dyno run from before I switched to the PFC. This is a 92JDM 3SGTE, stock fuel, Hybrid ct20, sidemount, factory cat, blitz defuser and NurSpecR exhaust. The po had disconnected the TVSV so it was sitting at only 7psi... I also found that the cams were one tooth out. You can see that the AFR goes to about .7!


_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

I have gotten the cams back to nearly 100%, the PFC controlling boost and I hope to get my AFR good for a power run, then let's see what this makes at 17psi :smile:
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#97
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
So I got my wideband installed in the o2 adaptor and did a test rig up in the car

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

Before starting up the car I turned off the O2 feedback control in the PFC to ensure that it wouldn't change the tune that I was trying to monitor.

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

After starting up I found that the wideband response was very fast. I guess if the engine is excessively lean or rich this would take longer but it was impressive how fast it would respond to changes in the fuel map, virtually within a second or two.

I did not go for a drive with my ghetto rig up, so I just did some testing in neutral, what I found was that at Idle I am seeing about 15.4 AFR (slightly lean) and then about 13.8 - 14.4 when free revving and holding at 3,500. Shown below on this map.

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

I'm excited with this first stab at it, and can't wait for the weekend to finish my ECU connectors and start doing some proper monitoring :thumbup
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#98
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
Today I got a chance to do some data logging. Here is what a 3rd gear WOT pull looks like on the ZT2 logging console:


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I also did some logging with the datalogit over the same stretch of road and it unveiled some interesting information:


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My AFR results after a few seperate passes. The datalogit averages the numbers and skips any cells that the ECU isn't using for at least 20 msec. The area in red shows that the engine is getting leaner at the wrong time.

Further investigation shows that the injectors (440's) are getting to a high % duty cycle:

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

There's also some higher than desireable knock picked up in that range:

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG
(I have read that anything over 25 on the PFC is worth worrying about)

An interesting trend I noticed was that the battery voltage gets ever so slightly lower as the engine RPM/Load increases. I wonder is this just my car or is it normal? I thought the voltage regulator would take car of that.

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

This was made of 3rd gear pulls in an 80k/hr zone. In the same outing I had done some other pulls on the highway also in 3rd. This is where the map gets ugly!
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#99
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
The AFR is again afflicted in the high load area

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

Inj duty cycle % hitting 100 :eek:

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And knock as a result

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

This is with my max boost set to 15psi. I will probably need to lower it to 12psi and spend some time on optimising my fuel map to reach some AFR goals. This is a process that is detailed in some length in this online article . I commend Innovative in their detailing, it is solid article and really helped me out a lot in just getting this far.
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#100
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
The approach I used was to lower my ignition map by 10 points, and raise my base map by 10 points. My knock disappeared, so there is a pretty good chance that it was detonation or pre-ignition and not engine harmonics. I then reworked my ignition timing back up in the off boost area and kept my lowered ignition under load until I sort out my AFR's.

Not saying it's right, it's just my approach...

FYI for those new to Datalogit, if you click where the red dot is on this picture, the whole map will go blue and you can set the values up or down just by pressing the + or - key. Much easier than going through changing each cell at a time


_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG
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#101
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
Ok so I bypassed my resistor pack. The immediate difference was that my pump now runs at ~13.3v.... practically 25% better pressure and also voltage drop under boost goes to 12.8v. Much better than 9ish.

I know this has been covered in some detail before, but for the sake of completeness here were my results.

My AFR at idle is richer at approx 13.9 rather than 14.7 and also it made a big difference in the on road performance. Here are two 3rd gear high throttle pulls (before and after)

Pump at 9v

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Pump at 13.3v

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

I am way rich now and need to go though and reset my base map. This gives me a bit of extra headroom on the current injectors while I get my big fuel system installed.

Note there are some inconsistencies in these graphs at boost level and tps. This is due to my own inexperience and the difficulty in getting an exact repeat on the street. I guess that's why a dyno is always superior.
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#102
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
Ok following my fuel pump changes, I did the following:

Went back to the default base map to eliminate my previous corrections

Did some AFR datalogging in 3rd, 4th, & 5th on the open road (early in the morning). This rendered me the following AFR's:

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to which I copied these in to an Excel spreadsheet:

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then I created a secondary tab, with my desired AFR's:

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and using a simple excel formula, created a correction value for each cell:
=IF(OR(ISBLANK('Actual AFR'!B2)),1,(('Actual AFR'!B2)/'Desired AFR'!B2))

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG
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#103
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
I then applied this to my baseXinj values in another tab to get my corrected AFR's

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By taking these values and graphing them in excel it is possible to get an understanding of how much fuel the ECU is delivering at each RPM/load point.

Here is the default Power FC map:

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After my corrections were applied, my base map then looked like this:

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

The numbers that I am collecting from the wideband are averages, and as such you can see some circles that indicate fairly 'bumpy' changes in the fuel map. So using Excel 2003 (the feature doesn't work in Excel 2007) it is possible to click on these areas, adjust them up or down on the graph and it changes the table to reflect this. I have done a smoothed chart now and it looks like this:

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

I will do a few more data logs/graphing excercises and see how it pans out. I found this method by reading through the new celica forum stickies, and also looking at the tuning videos on Hondata (tipped to me by a friendly Mr2oc member).
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#104
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
This is also a pretty cool video, Ben Strader on how to dyno tune using a dyno dynamics.

I have located a dyno dynamics shop nearby and will try to get along there for a power run. Anyone got any advise on what settings (dyno shootout mode etc) to use so that it can be compared with other things that peeps post up here?
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#105
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
Ok so after smoothing out my fuel map, I went to my test road and picked up another 3rd gear ramp:

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

My AFR's run pretty close to the PFC INJ map, don't know what I am doing with the TPS (lol) but I think it's definitely time to lower the duty cycle on my boost controller as I'm hitting 19psi :eek:

I did some data logging this afternoon also and my knock is looking relatively great for 19psi :) I think my timing is a little on the lax side though:

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG
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#106
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
Ok so I ran my latest logged AFR's through my spreadsheet and took a look at the results. Here is a variance showing various data points that are richer (below 1) or leaner (above 1) across the mapped cells:

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

It looks a bit dramatic :eek: but in fact, most of the logged values are between only 1 - 2% out and there were 5 or so that were 5% out.

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My corrected injXbase chart then looks like this:

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And practically only one bump to remove due to the minute adjustments:

_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

This log was taken across a completely different road and in different traffic conditions and is extremely close to the target AFR's. To that point, I am going to take on the next step of altering my target AFR's to aim for proven best performance areas for the 3sgte.
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#107
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
Ok so I've been doing some playing around with e85 for the heck of it and have found it to meet with the opinions already expressed on this board (and others). I popped in 1/3 of a tank thinking that it would not make much difference. On my wideband, my AFR's were 14.7 before that, and within about 5 seconds of starting up after e85 it went to 17.8. Quite lean. I knew it needed a lot more fuel so I was expecting something, but possibly not so quick. Anyways, I gave it some time to mix and then did some data logging and remapped for the e85 and so far so good. Car is running really smooth, I think it is actually smoother than before but I can't explain it to well in text. I did some knock logging, and found that the values are comparable in off boost, but in on boost, in many cells I am seeing a reduction in intensity to LESS THAN HALF. That is good news for my ignition map, and I can't wait to play with it on 100% e85

Before

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After

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I would like to do some more scientific style testing, but I have a time and resources constraint at the mo. I'm going to try and continue on this track however and get to the dyno soon to see what I can squeeze out of my stock setup before upgrading to the 800's etc.
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#108
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 209
I've spoken to Quandry about his tuning and I have to say - the whole idea of tuning your own car is very appealing. Also, the knowledge that you understand your fuel and ignition maps and when you get it right, it's gotta be a great feeling.

If I have bit more time and some cash next year, I think I'll be getting that book, a PFC, wideband etc and having a go myself

Thanks for sharing great info to the community
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_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG
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#109
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
I was thinking about buying a gtech, but now I have found Dynostorm and I have a spare Blackberry Storm at work.


_KUNENA_BBCODE_HIDEIMG

Next round of testing coming soon!
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#110
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
Ok so I got hold of the Dynostorm software for Blackberry, installed it and got out for a couple of runs. Basically it is gimicky but they have done a nice job on presentation and it actually shows a lot more information than what I expected.

Here is a list of the data that Dynostorm can show you:
* 0-60 Acceleration
* Other Speed Tests (0-10 MPH through 0-100 MPH in 10 MPH increments)
* 1/4 Mile Elapsed Time
* 1/4 Trap Speed
* Elapsed Time and Trap Speed for standard intervals (60′, 330′, 1/8 Mile, 1000′)
* Lateral G’s (current and peak)
* Braking G’s (current and peak)
* Horsepower (wheel and/or estimated crank)
* Friction Circle (max G’s in 16 directions)
* Downloadable Timed Run Graphs
* Downloadable Skidpad Graphs

And for 12bucks or whatever, you can't really go wrong. You do need to own a Blackberry storm or Iphone in advance so I guess that is the expensive part. I opted to try this system as an alternative to buying a gtech, which has a superior name and LOTS of track record in this area, however after seeing the performance of the Dynostorm I think that the gtech might have similar limitations.

So basically, once the software is installed the setup is quite straight forward. There is a one time calibration that the system requires. This involves changing the position of the handheld throughout 3dimensions so that it can normalise it's gyro sensors. After this, the only other settings to put in is the weight and drivetrain loss of the car. The weight can have particularly wideranging effects so it pays to get it as accurate as possible. I have no weighbridge near by so just for the hell of it I put in 1350kg which I think is probably close to what the car weighs with me in it (yes I am fat - or so my kids tell me). I also put in a 20% drivetrain loss as the system will tell you crank versus wheel horsepower which is nice.

Reading through the dyno storm manual, is suggests to do the calibration in the car as the temperature can make a difference to the readings. I did my calibration at my work desk (whoops should have RTFM first). Also they say that the unit has to be facing the back of the car (as if you are looking at the screen) although it can be at any angle. I found straight up and down to be the most effective.

The first mistake I made was to leave the system measurement at 30 seconds which isnt' an aweful long time, but when your are flat to the boards with a howling 3sgte you are going pretty fast by the end of it!

Another issue I had was that the I had no way of mounting it in my car. It's not possible to leave it slide all over the passenger seat, as it will screw up the readings pretty good. Even in a cup holder or phone cradle, you need to make sure it WILL NOT BUDGE. Dynostorm suggest using some foam to firm up whatever mount you have. As I didn't want to 'just give up', I held it and the steering wheel in one hand while I shifted with the other (not the safest).

Finally, I found it difficult to find a perfectly straight/flat piece of ground which is required for measurement accuracy (despite the fact I was at an abandoned airfield). This could be overcome somewhat by shortening the measurement time meaning less distance is required.

I only had time to crack out three runs and here are the graphs from them:


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[IMG]http://solution.ie/mr2/dynoc/dyno.jpg [/IMG]

Run 1 has me pegged at 13.6 quarter mile and 230hp at the wheels, Run 2 is 12.82 and 156hp, Run 3 is 13.1 and 140hp. So basically there are large variances and the numbers don't add up. My car dynoed 180 at the wheels at 7psi a couple of months ago, and since then I have switched injectors and run 19psi on an e85 mix. So I suspect maybe it is at 220 or 230hp. And it's hauling _____ when I'm doing this so probably a high 13 is reasonable. The other interesting thing is that the terminal speed for all runs seemed to be quite accurate. How it gets this I do not know, it certainly doesn't use GPS.

At any rate, more testing is required, but I thought I would let you know what I have found so far. Anyone else with test data from Dynolicious (the iPhone version) or Dynostorm?
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#127
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 59
Very interesting read mate. I did a bit of engine mapping as party of my degree and it is a very interesting subject. When I was doing it we had the engine on an engine dynomometer in a test cell though. Was amazing watching the exhaust pipes heating up red hot.

Oh and yes, there were a few engine malfunctions(kaput) but thats to be expected when trying to map like a race team with no experience!

Interesting to see you managed to pick it up fairly easily. I'd love to give it a go myself but think I'd be more comfortable working with an N/A engine first and working my way towards my baby!
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#130
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 127
Dan where did you do the engine mapping ?
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#137
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 59
I did a BSc in Motorsport Technology in the University of Hertfordshire. Was a great course and very interesting. We only really started mapping in the final year and it was only for a few hours a week but it was very useful. I know for a fact it was very different to on the road mapping. What we were going was more in line with what OEM manufacturers might do when they have a new engine. Starting from scratch and trying to set idle, etc. That is difficult with no information! Fun though!
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#156
Re:3sgte tuning 5 Years, 3 Months ago Karma: 305
cheers Dan,

The Power FC is an easy platform to work with, there's also a couple of well established forums/groups of people that have a lot of experience with it so I was able to get up to speed really quickly.

As for holding back on tuning an NA rather than a turbo, I guess it depends what ECU you use. In the case of PowerFC it's easier to tune a turbo as the ECU just plugs in and is ready to go with the base map that's on it. To try and tune an NA with PowerFC is harder as you have to adjust a lot of the base settings to get it to work.

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